Glasgowhill Collies

BREEDER ETHICS
In June 2009 I received Wicani's Affirmation (Quest) from Wicani Collies in England. I was thrilled to be getting another English Collie, as the one I received from Pelido Collies 16 years earlier was a very good specimen, and I was excited about the Wicani dog. Upon taking Quest from his crate I was dismayed at how small he was and the fact that his tail was double curled (spitz like). Before Quest was shipped I had many conversations with Wicani Kennels about proper tail sets and gay tails. I was adamant about not wanting to have a gay tailed collie in my breeding program, for once they are introduced they take many generations to correct. As a side note, the Collie I received from Pelido had a proper tail set and no gay tail. I also was a little concerned about his eye placement and the "foreign" look to his expression. There was nothing balanced on this boys head. But, let's face all puppies are cute. Quest was 12 weeks old when I received him and he was taken to his first dog shows about 2 weeks later. He was shown in fun matches during this time, and was quite a showman, but you could tell that he just didn't fit in. During the 12 days of this show circuit we also began to notice his "dominant" temperament. At that time we were constantly correcting this behavior. Upon returning from the dog shows I contacted Wicani Collies in regards to this behavior and they assured me that his sire and dam had no aggression problems and it was just probably a "puppy thing". I also addressed the double curled tail and she, again, assured me that this problem too would correct itself. In my personal opinion, and experience, I was not so optimistic.

In the winter of 2010 Wicani Collies viewed a video I had taken of Quest. Upon seeing this Mrs. Harvey sent me an email stating that she was horrified at his horrendous tail and would send me a replacement for him. At the same time Wicani Collies had reserved a bitch puppy from a litter bred from Chad (Can Ch. Glasgowhill's Be A Rockstar) and Alo (Millcreek's Oh So Beautiful). We continued to discuss Quest's tail and other problems he was having during the winter months. I had discussed breeding him with one of my bitches, but during that time he had a seizure. I immediately let the Wicani people know, and Mrs Harvey said "I have only ever had one dog with a seizure and she had a fractured skull after a tree branch had fallen on her, she was put to sleep and she was fitting the entire journey to the vet, but I have never had one do this in any other circumstance. He is a very 'on his toes' dog I realised this when I saw him on video, but we have had others with that personality too, always on the go and it never seemed to hurt them. I hope this is a one off. I have never seen this in his dams line or in the line through his paternal grandsire but I know very little about the Nyitramenti lines, I brought that line over because it has faster maturity, but oddly enough his sire 'Phoenix' has been slow to mature and has obviously taken more after his sire than his mom. I am stunned Sandi. If Quest does not turn out for any reason I will send you something better at some point in the future, I mean separately to the puppy I already owe you. I have to say I HATE that tail, I was shocked when I realised how bad it was, and Keith was too, and he is shorter in neck and back than ours are normally. I would actually prefer to send you something better even if he is OK, for me Quest in nice but not typical 'Wicani' ". I told them that I had bitches in season and every time he had a seizure was during those times. His aggression problems became worse, and that prompted us to have an MRI done on him, at my cost of $1200. We also had extensive blood work done to rule out any problems with his liver or kidneys. The MRI discovered a small mass (about the size of a pen point). At that time they put him on medication to reduce this mass, but they felt that this had nothing to do with either the seizures or his aggression. From what I had discussed with the Vets, they said that his seizures were probably hormonal and he would probably grow out of it. The mass was not genetic in nature. The meds took care of the problem and Quest had only 4 seizures total. However the medications did not take care of his aggression problems. REMINDER: Mrs. Harvey was replacing Quest on his tail set alone. This was before he started to have seizure's or his worsening aggression problems. During this time I had emailed Mrs Harvey and said, "Angela I am pleased with your suggestion on a replacement but this is not why I told you about what happened yesterday with him . I do not like his tail either I HATE it too but I feel I can work with it I also see a BIG difference in what you have at your kennel He is Not of Wicani type at all ( and that is what I was hoping for a typical wicani collie ) he is very short in back very Square . I am worried that he had this seizure and I will be watching him like a hawk . I have a planned breeding with him to Maggie . and all the pups are spoken for because of the UK boy Mix with mine ( I have had people here to see him and say he is not Wicani type at all ) and this was based on them viewing your web site But I am worried that this tail will pass on .In my experiences This kind of tail will always re produce itself in the pups not all pups but most . I will have to go ahead with the breeding for people are so excited to get one of the pups .That's if he has no more seizers if he has more I will not use him at all . So time will tell Don't be upset dogs are dogs correct my friend we all just try to do our best . no matter what happens". Her response to me was, "I will be VERY HAPPY to send a replacement puppy Sandi, and in fact I will be relieved, I want you to have TRUE representatives of our kennel! I can understand why you might take a litter by him with Maggie, that is unless he has another seizure". Never at any time did Mrs. Harvey even suggest that if I used Quest for breeding she wouldn't replace him. Although I had planned on breeding Quest to Maggie (Can. Ch. Glasgowhill's So Much More), he had other ideas.

In March 2010 my old girl Gander (Van-M Take A Gander) came into season and during our morning chores of putting dogs out Quest bred her, one time and one time only. I immediately contacted Mrs. Harvey to let her know about this. I decided at that time not to breed him to Maggie, and instead breed him to Sunny (Glasgowhill Silverado Stylish) (the Rough) because she was a Gander daughter. We didn't know if Gander would become pregnant, so that's why I chose Sunny to breed to. What better way to evaluate one's successes or failures, when importing a foreign dog, than to breed a mother and daughter to him at the same time. Sunny's litter was whelped 4 days after Gander's, so that gave us 12 puppies total to evaluate. Fast forward 3 weeks....at this time I started all the pups on puppy gruel and began to notice a behavior that I don't normally deal with. When the pups would go to the food bowl and stick their heads in to eat they would growl at each other. As they grew older it turned to fighting. This was so bad that at 5 weeks old I had to feed everyone separately. I have NEVER had to separate puppies at this young of an age. Most of mine continue to free feed, without incident, to the age of 5-6 months old when we start crate training. It also became apparent that they could not play with toys together without fights breaking out. Now came evaluation time....out of 12 puppies 10 carried their tails right over their backs. Only one of those pups had a double curled tail, the rest were carried right over their backs. These pups were also showing extreme aggression problems. After these evaluations I contacted Mrs. Harvey to let her know, and to also let her know that the pups that were promised to other breeders were declined due to these problems. So in essence I ended up growing out both litters, except the two tri girls who went to pet homes at 8 weeks old. One pup was sold to a performance home at the age of 4 months and I received a phone call from her the next day complaining that the dog had attacked two dogs in the dog park. Both dogs that he attacked were small. I offered to take the dog back, but she wanted to work with dog but was not impressed with this dogs temperament. I had fully disclosed the aggression problems that Prowler was having prior to letting him go. She has worked with Prowler and has since helped him with this issue. I contacted Mrs. Harvey about this, wanting to keep her updated. I also told her that if she had imported my boys to fix temperaments that it probably wouldn't work. She immediately considered this an attack on her person and cancelled the puppy that she had reserved. Her explanation for cancelling the puppy was that she didn't want to "put all of her eggs in one basket". I learned shortly after this that she had purchased a dog ( Van-M's Goodfellow) from Van M kennels in the US. She also told me that I wouldn't be getting a replacement for Quest, deleted me from all forms of internet groups that we were friends on. I was so shocked at this behavior from her. NOTE: I will explain the relationships between these dogs later.

At this point Mrs. Harvey had totally written me off and was spreading rumors about how I treated my dogs, and other nasty topics. At the beginning of October 2010 a fellow breeder, who is also a animal behaviorist, contacted me about leasing a bitch. We discussed the bitch, at length, and I suggested to her that I also send Quest to her for possible breeding to this bitch. The reason for this was that the bitch was of very laid back temperament, and from totally different lines than what I had bred to Quest. Also, we both felt that Quest deserved another chance to see if this environment change would change his temperament. She agreed to this and shortly thereafter I shipped both Dare (Can. Ch. Glasgowhill's Double Dare) and Quest to her. In February 2011 I traveled, with my good friend Cheryl, to evaluate this litter that was born in December 2010. I felt that it was my responsibility to personally evaluate this litter. What we saw when we arrived was total chaos when it came to Quest. His aggression problems had gotten even worse, at no fault to my breeder friend. He was fence fighting, attacking other dogs and even humans. Some of his get from this litter were high energy, food aggressive and small...and all the pups carried their tails over their backs. At that time I chose two pups to bring back home with me, as per our agreement. We also decided, at that time, to leave Quest there. We discussed changes, once again, to his environment, possible neutering and placement in a pet home. A Breeder in the Netherlands contact me, at this time, to trade Quest for a puppy bred from one of her stud dogs to a bitch that came directly from my breeding program. I explained to her that we wanted Quest neutered but she insisted that she has dealt with dogs with aggression problems before. At this point I feared that she was contacting me on Mrs. Harvey's instruction. At no time did I hear from Mrs. Harvey about sending Quest back to her. I felt that it was irresponsible and unethical to send a dog to another breeder with this bad of an aggression problem. It wasn't until the middle of April that we had to seriously discuss possible euthanizing of Quest due to his worsening aggression. We have laws in this country about dogs that have vicious propensities towards other dogs or humans. It is the owners responsibility not to slough that dog off on Humane Societies or other people. It was at this time also that some of Mrs. Harvey's foot soldiers found out what we were discussing and launched a campaign to retrieve the dog. AT NO TIME DID MRS. HARVEY ATTEMPT TO CONTACT ME ABOUT THIS. What kind of breeder would send someone else to do their work. On April 26th we had Quest euthanized. This was the correct decision because had he bitten anyone else, or attacked anyone Else's dogs he would have been euthanized anyways. As an animal behaviorist I have dealt with aggressive dogs, not only with private citizens but also through animal shelters. Quest was the very first dog that I have had to euthanize for aggression. I do believe in retraining, but when a dog is aggressive enough to attack and bite humans and other dogs, despite retraining then the only recourse is euthanization. There is a huge difference between a dog biting out of fear and a dog biting out of aggression.

As all of this was taking place, Mrs. Harvey told people that Pride (Can. Ch. Glasgowhill's With Pride) had "savaged" two of her dogs because he was standing off to the side and looked guilty while two of her other dogs were standing, blood stained, over the dog that was attacked. I immediately offered to buy the dog back. NO RESPONSE FROM MRS. HARVEY. I sent her an email about proper kennel management of stud dogs and she immediately replied by saying, "When are you going to stop insulting my intelligence?" As of this date (09/17/2011) Mrs. Harvey has put Pride up for sale twice, has refused to let me or anyone else, purchase him, then decided to keep him in her breeding program.

Currently, all the pups from all of the Quest breedings (three litters) have been GIVEN AWAY. Has the combination worked for Mrs. Harvey? Again, in my opinion it has not. She has had a couple of very good specimens, but for her country on the whole I don't think the combination works. And for someone who is so into health screenings why has she not hip scored either of those boys, as she has been told that those lines have a propensity for Hip Dysplasia. To quote Malcolm B. Willis' book, Practical Genetics for Dog Breeders, "As breeders we have a responsibility to try to combat HD, one of the most commonest and certainly the most widespread of canine defects. Failure to do so through ignorance is one thing but failure to do anything due to sheer obstinancy is inexcusable. Hip screening by X-Ray involves some degree of risk but from a breed point of view the risk has to be taken since failure to combat HD is a far greater risk to the breed."

Mr. Willis also gives us a good guideline as to what constitutes a good breeder. He says and I quote. "A genuine dog breeder is someone who is avidly interested in dog in general and a breed(s) in particular and seeks to:
A. learn all he/she can about the breed
B. buy and live with that breed
C. breed litters occasionally but always doing so for a purpose, attempting always to improve the quality of his/her stock.
D. correctly socialise, rear and feed his/her dogs, seeking to ensure that they are integrated into the household (irrespective of whether they are house or kennel dogs). To this end only such numbers as can be coped with will be kept
E. pay considerable attention to the defects and failings in the breed and reduce their incidence by whatever genetic means are available
F. sell puppies for fair prices and to ensure as far as is possible that they are sold to good homes and that there is a follow up service which guarantees help to buyers
G. operate within a certain code of ethics whether breed club devised or not
H. ensure that if one of his/her dogs ends up in rescue or unwanted that is taken back and found a new home or remains in the breeder's kennels
I. to collaborate with other breeders for the general advancement of the breed. This does not prevent healthy competition with other breeders.
J. put the advancement of the breed above personal glory or power.

There is nothing unethical in making a living or an income from dogs provided that the advancement of the breed concerned is not jeopardised in the process. Nor is there any "crime" in producing defects since the very nature of genetics means that this can occur in anyone's kennels. The problem stems from what one does when defects occur and what one does to reduce the risk of such defects occurring. Those "breeders" who do not take even the elementary steps to try to avoid know problems in their breed are a disgrace to it and those who when they do produce a problem "bury it quickly" and keep quiet about it are putting their personal status in terms of power and glory before the breed. Neither group (often one and the same) deserves the title of dog breeder.
If you want to be a genuine dog breeder then, to misquote President J. F. Kennedy, "ask not what the breed can do for me but what I can do for the breed." Far too many people in dogs, some of them in high places, are takers rather than givers. They take money, power, prestige and fame from their breed(s) and give back little or nothing. Most breeds would be better without them. Many dog clubs would be better without them and the judging of most breeds would benefit from having fewer glory seekers indulging in judging, adding breeds to their list as others collect stamps.
Dogs are often described as an extension of an owner's ego. To many, criticism of their dog is considered criticism of themselves. Yet it is only by constructive criticism that advances can be made. If breeders are to advance they need not only to be able to recognise failings in themselves but, most of all, in their dogs. Rose-colored spectacles are all too often worn in the canine world and all to often judges (who should know better) compose eulogistic critiques of dogs rather than offend exhibitors by telling the plain unadulterated truth. Faults need to be put in perspective but nobody will advance if faults are never mentioned."

As for Breeder Ethics...I have disclosed every single dog that has failed in hips and those that have bloated. As a responsible breeder I dug a little deeper to investigate where my problems came from. As to the hip dysplasia I found that Can Ch. Van M That's The Ticket (Atsa), rather than having a hip injury (as disclosed by the breeder) indeed had hip dysplasia. I also found that when bred to Van M Take A Gander (Gander), of the 8 puppies, three had hip dysplasia and two had bloat. When bred to Can. Ch. Glasgowhill's Sweet Temptation (Smooch), of the 10 puppies and her only litter, four had hip dysplasia and none bloated. But offspring of Atsa (Grandchildren) two have bloated, one had successfully surgery and survived and three had hip dysplasia. But please note that Gander was bred to other stud dogs and none of her get had these problems. Nor have any of Smooch's grandchildren had problems.
The reason for adding these dogs names is to show you that Atsa bred to different bitches produced the same problems, so he is the common denominator. So what is his relationship to Goodfellow....he's Atsa's (Can. Ch. Van M That's The Ticket) maternal grandson. So you can see why I couldn't wrap my brain around why she didn't want to "put all her eggs in one basket" idea. I tried to give her this information and what I got from it was bad mouthing and silence. I DO NOT suffer, as Mrs. Harvey does, from "The Breeder's Code of Silence". Nor is this any attempt to bad mouth Wicani Kennels or Van M Kennels. But when we keep hiding facts then you are not protecting the breed you are protecting yourself.

In regards to the decision we had to make for Quest, I think this quote from Mr. Willis sums it up, "There are times when one has to risk defeat in order to have the chance of victory. So it is with breeding. sometimes you have to take a gamble or you will never satisfy your curiosity about the idea you had. But you must not take silly or unacceptable risks and in any gamble you must be fully prepared to be ruthless with the consequences of things going wrong."

As for my ethical situation... I have replaced several dogs, since I incorporated Van-M That's The Ticket into my breeding program, for hip dysplasia and bloat. In my 30 years in the breed I had never had either problem until bringing this dog into my breeding program. All of this was disclosed on my website. I am diligently working to lessen and improve both problems from my breeding program by incorporating new lines that have not displayed these problems. But as we all know, I can only rely on what the other breeders say until a problem arises. You can work towards improvement but you can't avoid these problems without disclosure. Besides importing from Wicani Kennels I have imported 4 dogs from three other rather prominent kennels from two other countries. I will not disclose those names, but just be it known that I have nothing but good things to say about them. Of those 4 dogs I have been disappointed twice, but both times the Breeders have given a good account of their ethics with a promise of a replacement or refund. It shocked me that Wicani Kennels refused to replace Quest after promising to do so. I have never had another Breeder not replace a dog for whatever reason. This type of practice is not only unethical, but shows a lack of honesty in their breeding program and respect for other Breeders.
I have asked Gene Williams to share her story about my ethics and morals to other Breeders. Here is her story:
I "met" Sandi when we both bought a smooth puppy bitch from another breeder and were experiencing the same problems with them. We chatted both on the internet and over the phone. Some of those discussions were hours long. We discovered that we had the same ideals about breeding and most of our conversations covered breedings, genetics, etc. In the summer of 2006 Sandi had a litter which included smooths. I was immediately taken with a little bitch called Shimmer. Sandi and I discussed this bitch and I was adamant about getting her. Sandi thought that her sister, Sunshine, was a better bitch but I stood firm on Shimmer. The day that Shimmer was shipped Sandi called me and told me to expect two puppies not one. She insisted that once I saw Sunshine in comparison to Shimmer that I would understand why she did it. She did not ask me to pay for the puppy, just the additional cost of shipping two instead of one. There are not many breeders out there who would send anyone a promising puppy just because they felt it was better than what was originally asked for. To my utter amazement when I saw the two girls I realized that Sandi was right. Sunshine was much better than her sister and I couldn't judge that by pictures alone. Did she ask me to send Shimmer back...NO. Sandi sent me both girls to grow out and then I was to decide what to do with them. And yes, Sandi and I did co-own both girls so regardless of what I decided it was to be a joint decision. I have never once had any doubt about whether or not Sandi and I could work together, whether it was owning dogs or doing breedings. Sandi and I have been friends for seven years. We have had disagreements but like most rational people we talked about them. I have seen most of what Sandi has been dealing with over the years, especially the last three years. The dealings that Sandi has had with Wicani Kennels I have witnessed personally. When Mrs. Harvey got to the point that she was ranting over some of the things that Sandi was trying to tell her Sandi asked that I intervene and try to explain it better. At that point Mrs. Harvey starting attacking me and then promptly removed both Sandi and I from her forum and as Facebook friends. The attacks have continued to this day. I have the utmost respect for Sandi and have lost all respect for Mrs. Harvey due to her unrelenting attacks. Let me tell you this....I was here when Quest arrived and I was totally shocked! He was not what I had expected from a top Collie Kennel in Britain. I was also here when most of the problems with Quest started happening, and when other breeders viewed Quest. Their comments were in line with we were seeing of him. If Mrs. Harvey was concerned about her reputation in Canada then I would have to say that she should have followed up on her commitmentto replace Quest. As I see it, and from what I have heard from others here, that reputation is now non-existent. She has given no one a reason for buying a quality dog from her kennel because the quality of Quest was inferior and her lack of follow through non-existent.
This brings me to my final thought. I was cruising the internet one day and found a Breeder/Judge from the UK who judges internationally. He is well liked in his country and over in the States. This is a comment he made regarding collies in the UK.
HAVING BEEN ASSOCIATED WITH ROUGH COLLIES
FOR FIFTY YEARS NOW, PEOPLE ASK ME IF I HAVE ANY
AMBITIONS OR HOPES FOR THE FUTURE?
MY FIRST HOPE IS THAT BREEDERS WILL REFRAIN
FROM BREEDING MINIATURE COLLIES WITH SHORT
HEADS, LOW SET WIDE EARS,AND TAILS THAT WILL
SOON PUT THE BREED INTO THE SPITZ GROUP.
SECONDLY I HOPE TO SEE THE GOOD COLLIES I HAVE
JUDGED ABROAD WINNING TOP AWARDS HERE IN
BRITAIN.
THIRDLY I WOULD LIKE TO SEE COLLIES ADVERTISED
WITH CLEAR EYES USING THE MORE POSITIVE D. N. A.

His description of the UK collies is exactly what Quest looked like.

I am not doing this to bash another breeder, but to tell my story as to what happened when a breeder decided to shun their responsibility and listened to other people's opinions. I had nothing but the utmost respect for Mrs Harvey when this endeavor started, but I have not bashed her kennel by any stretch of the imagination.
People can read anything into whatever you write, but no one can honestly say that they know the entire story unless they lived it. If Mrs. Harvey decides that she wants to take me to court over this matter then have at it. I have consulted with my own lawyer as to this matter and was told it wasn't worth the time or effort because it would be in the courts for years. As for ownership and breeder rights, they are two entirely different matters. I owned this dog out right with no written contract with Mrs. Harvey. She was given the chance to take this dog back, but then refused to correspond with me. Yes, as a Breeder she had first right of refusal but did not take it. If she had given permission for any of her friends to "rescue" this dog then she should have contacted me. As the Owner of this dog, it was my right to decide this dogs fate. I did not enter into the decision I made lightly nor did I have to sell or even give this dog away to any one. I made what I considered the proper decision for this dog, AS IT'S OWNER, when the BREEDER did nothing.

This is the whole point of the story....it wasn't about kennel bashing it was about disappointment and a breeder's responsibility. The only thing I am guilty of is not describing what was actually happening with Quest and his get. I did not want to make trouble for Mrs. Harvey's breeding program with the many negative things I was seeing in these dogs. It's very easy for everyone to sit back and say what they think about what I was saying about these dogs but, once again, unless you have lived in my shoes then you don't have the full story. How many times have you told someone you thought they had a nice dog but didn't mean it and then tell someone else what you really thought. By attacking me with private emails regarding my decision to put Quest down and not addressing any of the other issues is to me single minded. You are centering on the wrong problem. If you are a PETA lover, I have no problem with that, just don't think that everyone thinks the same way. Everyone has the right to their own opinions.....but I would appreciate it if you kept them to yourself, and not email me with them.